We are really thrilled to be joined by our friend and colleague Leilani Mañulu, an Intuitive Leadership + DEI expert, a keynote speaker, the author of “Paradox of the Water Bearer” (with another book in the works!), host of “The Intuitive Catalyst” podcast, and a shaman!

We met Leilani a number of years ago at a program leaders event at the Whidbey Institute. Right away, we could tell we were in good company.

This conversations covers a lot of territory, so buckle up. From grief and the loss of identity in relationship to DEI work, to shame and how important it is to give it a voice, to the kinds of competencies we may want to develop to do this work (hint: the title may give that away).

This one is personal. Having done some workshops to promote the Disrupting Our Practice: Understanding Whiteness program, and getting ready for the program itself, we’ve had some insights.

Insights that hit home rather close. So close, that Greg gets to sit with a giant knot in his stomach in the middle of the episode. Today we’re exploring those insights, talking about the ways that we still – after all of this work, after becoming facilitators of this work – center the comfort of white-bodied folks. We talk about the kinds of discomfort we (white-bodied folks) all need to step into.

This week we take you into a real experience Shannon had on a recent client engagement. It was an experience where it didn’t take long for race to become named explicitly, and Shannon was able to look at what she was, and wasn’t, tracking.

We explore what came up for her, how she navigated it, and what some of the learnings she’s taken away from the experience. You’ll want to give this one a listen.

We decided we wanted to explore some of the topics we’ll be looking at in our 9-week program this fall, and decided to start with control.

It just so happened that Shannon was on a family getaway, and some stuff was up for her, so we recorded part of our conversation.

Join us as we consider the ways that control plays out in ourselves and in the rooms we facilitate.

We were both really struck by an interview with Resmaa Menakem, Báyò Akómoláfé, and Orland Bishop as they prepared for their event Three Black Men on June 24th and 25th.

Their interview is far reaching, and it had us thinking about our work, what it means to facilitate, and how do we do this deep, uncomfortable work. We are incredibly grateful for these men, as well as those who are holding and supporting them as they do this work.

We highly recommend listening to the interview with them (link below), as well as checking out the Three Black Men project, which will have two more events on two more continents this year.

We are excited to be offering a new program this fall - Disrupting Our Practice: Understanding Whiteness.

In this episode, we wanted to talk about the program - why we are doing it, what you can expect, how it’s different than a lot of other programs out there. It’s a deep dive into the heart of what it means to be in this work, and what it is that we are trying to build.

(Hint: it’s community, connection, and spaces for all of us white-bodied folks to wrestle with the challenging conversations about race and our work.)

To get ready for the program, we’re offering two free workshops at the beginning of August. They are an opportunity to get a feel for the program, as well as to learn a tool you can take into your work right away.

We’ve been wanting to have Jennie and Dylan on since the beginning of this podcast. This is one for the books, friends.

Dylan Wilder Quinn (they/them) founded TransIntimate in 2020, to build connection and skill-building for cisgender people who want to be close to transgender people to know us beyond our pronouns. Jennie Pearl (she/her) is on the team at TransIntimate, working closely with Dylan. Both Jennie and Dylan are also on the core team at Holistic Resistance.

We can’t really think of two better people to bring in to talk about this intersection of navigating race and gender. Our conversation goes deep into this, and still we an only scratch the surface!

We started this conversation with an inquiry that Shannon’s been in for a bit: How do i build the capacity to really interrogate the tools I’m using? How do I develop a practice of looking at the tools and the ways that I use them that supports actually disrupting the norms that are making it so not everyone is heard?

It ends up being a rather far reaching conversation that not only includes all of that, but looks at the ways we (white-bodied folks) don’t tend to give credit where it’s due. This is especially true when we consider the origins of many of the approaches we use in our work.

We talk about the starting points for the conversations, and what does it really mean to move beyond the “formulaic approach” to some facilitation processes? How do we deal with situations where bottom up decision making is requested, but not actually respected in the end.

Reaching back a couple of weeks to when Greg interrupted Shannon's thought to invite in the idea that maybe, just maybe, leaders should consider not making meetings, retreats, workshops mandatory—that's what we're doing today.

What if instead of trying to figure out what to do next, we thought about what to stop doing? What if we gave people the freedom to walk away? What might we learn?

And what are the sides of this that we might want to consider when it comes to systems of oppression? Who might not feel safe simply walking away?

We were thinking about what it is to prepare to go into a space to facilitate—especially when we are pretty sure it will be a mixed space. What are the questions we should be asking ourselves before we go in a room like this? Or, more broadly, what are questions we might want to ask ourselves before taking on a project?

We're back! After taking a short hiatus for some rest and travel, we're back and ready to dive into the conversations.

We thought we'd start by reaching back to the experience of the workshops we did in February and March. The idea of talking about the workshops, was first floated by a participant who was curious about how we experienced them, as well as what we learned.

As we considered it, it became clear that there were aspects of the way that we hold these workshops that disrupt our own way of operating. You know, forcing us to disrupt our practice.

When we first met our teachers Aaron and Porsha from Holistic Resistance, they invited us to track our capacity. Being in this work is challenging, they reminded us. And to not have capacity to be in the work can make us, well, dangerous.

As we’ve been exploring this over the past few years, it’s become a central part of what we are up to in our work. Helping people—together and individually—build their capacity feels like some of the most important work we can be doing today.

At a recent workshop with our teacher and mentor Aaron Johnson of Holistic Resistance, he mentioned engaging wtih "next slide culture." That professional type environment where even when something deeply human and emotional emerges, the facilitator simply says, "next slide," and moves on.

In this episode, we explore how we've experienced and perpetrated next slide culture, why it might exist, and how we might navigate it. As facilitators, when do we slow down? When do we move away from our agenda? And, paradoxically, when might the wisest thing be to say, "next slide!"

In this episode, we’re returning to where we thought we’d go a couple of episodes again - talking about how the methodologies, processes, frameworks, theories, etc. are influenced by the dominant culture we live in. By this, of course, we mean white supremacy culture.

We’re not here to reject everything about our industry. Hardly. We recognize (and have experienced) the benefits of many of the ways we do things. That said, we think it’s important for us to examine the ways we work and be in inquiry around the impact that the culture of white supremacy would have on that.

To that end, we turn to the notion that Patrice Palmer outlines in their TED Talk (linked below): “There is a difference between ‘You are welcome here’ and ‘I had you in mind.’”

We decided to move some things around in our queue. We recorded this one after Greg had a little exchange with someone on LinkedIn (in private messages, so no need to go looking for it if you're curious 😉).

The back and forth with someone who, let's say, wouldn't agree with the premise of this podcast highlighted some things. As a door way in, we decided to use a 'classic' Holistic Resistance question: 'What's on top for you about race?'

It's an interesting question for a number of reasons. We talk a bit about that in this episode. We also invite you to explore it as well.

What happens for you when you consider that question? When you ask it directly to yourself? When you have a friend or colleague as you?

Well, this one was an interesting one—for us at least. We decided to talk about organizational culture, and it was the first time that we recorded while being in the same room together.

At some point along the way—really, during the listening sessions we decided to use to get the ball rolling—the whole thing pivoted.

We found ourselves slowing down and diving into topics such as:

• How do the Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture live within us? And how is that getting in the way?

• How much is my/our attraction to holding spaces around anti-racism related to white supremacy and patriarchy living within me/us?

• What are the ways that this can impact our roles, and actually keep white supremacy alive?